Rabbi Twerski correspondence with Rabbi Kaganoff - Revision history

The.guard: /* Question 2: Are Torah Observance and Spirituality, one and the same? */

2021-03-11T20:22:35Z

Question 2: Are Torah Observance and Spirituality, one and the same?

The.guard: /* Question 2: Are Torah Observance and Spirituality, one and the same? */

2021-03-08T07:24:20Z

Question 2: Are Torah Observance and Spirituality, one and the same?

The.guard at 13:38, 5 March 2021

2021-03-05T13:38:44Z

The.guard at 13:34, 5 March 2021

2021-03-05T13:34:05Z

The.guard at 13:17, 5 March 2021

2021-03-05T13:17:58Z

Show changes

The.guard: /* WHAT IS SPIRTUALITY? */

2021-03-03T07:30:20Z

WHAT IS SPIRTUALITY?

The.guard: /* WHAT IS SPIRTUALITY? */

2021-02-24T08:31:23Z

WHAT IS SPIRTUALITY?

The.guard: /* Rabbi Twerski’s Response: */

2021-02-24T08:03:26Z

Rabbi Twerski’s Response:

The.guard: /* Rabbi Twerski’s Response: */

2021-02-24T07:57:34Z

Rabbi Twerski’s Response:

The.guard: The.guard moved page Rabbi Twerski correspondence with Rabbi Kagenoff to Rabbi Twerski correspondence with Rabbi Kaganoff

2021-02-24T07:54:50Z

The.guard moved page Rabbi Twerski correspondence with Rabbi Kagenoff to Rabbi Twerski correspondence with Rabbi Kaganoff

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 === Rabbi Twerski’s response: ===
-Dear Rabbi Kaganoff,
+Dear Rabbi Kaganoff, נ<nowiki>''</nowiki>י
-It is ironic that the problem exists because the group meets in a conservative temple. Is this perhaps because the orthodox shul would not welcome them?
+Believe it or not, this is the first opportunity I have to respond. After returning from Israel and South Africa, and struggling with a 7 hour jet lag and catching up with a huge backlog, I have been twice to New York, and also to Los Angeles, San Francisco, Atlanta, Detroit, and Boston. If it were not for Chanuka, I'd probably be somewhere else today. This frenetic running around is due to my seeking support for a drug treatment project I have started in Israel, and also to call attention to my recently published book on spouse abuse in the Jewish community. If you think there was denial about alcoholism or drugs, it pales in comparison to the DENIAL about spouse abuse. Our brethren rabbis wish to continue to ignore it. I contend that they are in violation of a לא תוכל להתעלם ,דאורייתא.
 I see no problem with your stating what you believe to be G-d' s will. The steps leave it open as "G-d as I understand Him," and you certainly have the right to clarify what orthodoxy explains as G-d's will. I do not believe it will be counterproductive. You are not condemning anyone, merely stating a position. They can accept it or reject it as they wish.
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 Abraham J. Twerski

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 The vast majority of the attendees came away raving about the spirituality. I personally did not feel the experience spiritual at all. (Of course, I didn't tell them that!)
 I was very perturbed by the official policy of the Retreat that there is "no correct way to worship". (Ed note - Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Egalitarian are all given equal footing.)
 Above all I was upset that the spirituality of Mitzvah performance and Torah study were not further explored at the Orthodox level for the Orthodox and for the non-religious at their level.
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 === Rabbi Twerski’s response: ===
 Dear Rabbi Kaganoff,
 It is ironic that the problem exists because the group meets in a conservative temple. Is this perhaps because the orthodox shul would not welcome them?
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 Just imagine. Shabbos is supposed to be "like the World to Come". "Vayechulu" means that when Shabbos arrives, one puts the worries of the work week totally aside. The work week has been closed and completed. Shabbos is a spiritual experience where man and G-d are united as bride and groom. If we glowed with the joy of Shabbos and radiated the bliss the bliss of the World to Come, wouldn't people be running after us to learn our secret?) If those who see me are not observant of Shabbos, I need to improve myself rather than chastise them.
-Here, too, there is a valuable lesson from the program. Abstinence is not sobriety. Someone who has not had a drink for years but has not made any characterologic changes is a "dry drunk." Families will tell you that it is easier to live with an active drinker than with a dry drunk.
+Transgressing a negative prohibition of Torah is a sin. Failure to perform a required mitzva is also a sin. When we avoid all the ''lo-saseys'' and fulfil all the ''aseys'', we are essentially abstaining from sins. Unless we make the requisite improvement in ''midos'' we are the equivalent of a "dry drunk."
 There are many fine observant people who have exemplary ''midos''. Unfortunately, we cannot deny that there are more than a few people who observe glatt kosher and are dressed in the most frum garb, but who are sorely lacking in ''midos''. At the retreats, much of the anger is directed at parents or others who were very rigid and restrictive in their demands, but their ''midos'' did not keep pace with their ritual observance.

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 The vast majority of the attendees came away raving about the spirituality. I personally did not feel the experience spiritual at all. (Of course, I didn't tell them that!)
-The following were particularly distressing to me:
+<s>The following were particularly distressing to me:</s>
-Women singing loudly with men present and women dancing in close proximity and in public view of men without a Mechitza. Both of these were at the Shabbos meals and at the Havdolo ceremony.
+<s>Women singing loudly with men present and women dancing in close proximity and in public view of men without a Mechitza. Both of these were at the Shabbos meals and at the Havdolo ceremony.</s>
 I was very perturbed by the official policy of the Retreat that there is "no correct way to worship". (Ed note - Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Egalitarian are all given equal footing.)

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 [[Twerski on GYE|Main Index]]
-=== How does one do Kiruv in a Jewish 12-step recovery environment? ===
+=== Question 1: How does one do Kiruv in a Jewish 12-step recovery environment? ===
 Dear Rabbi Twerski,
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 The Jewish Recovery meeting meets in the basement of a Conservative Temple which in and of itself does not disturb me. (There are Piskei Halacha concerning churches and other functions in Conservative and Reform Temples and this is not worse). However because of my input and guidance, many in attendance begin feeling an affinity for Judaism etc. and have begun attending services at this Temple.
-This leads to my first question. Am I not, de facto, assisting these people from one self-deception into another? Spirituality is defined as choosing to follow Hashem's will.
+This leads to my first question. Am I not, de facto, assisting these people from one self-deception into another? Spirituality is defined as choosing to follow Hashem's will. To deceive oneself as to the nature of Hashem's will is again an addiction - a spiritual addiction - which is even more insidious than a hedonistic addiction.
 Since the basis of all spirituality and recovery is absolute honesty, my gut reaction is to speak out - gently, of course - and reveal that God's will for Jews is very clearly enunciated in the Oral and Written Torahs. To posit that they are not the Word of God is really another form of denial as can easily be proven by attendance to a Discovery Seminar of Aish Hatorah etc. or reading any number of books like Uri Zohar's "My Friends We've Been Robbed".
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 The question itself is frightening because if not now, then when? And if not, then I am accomplice to a deception that is blasphemous negative spirituality!
+----The second issue is in regard to the Jewish Recovery Retreat. I went to the recent retreat as you had recommended. It really brought to the fore the above turmoil that had been percolating in my head.
 The vast majority of the attendees came away raving about the spirituality. I personally did not feel the experience spiritual at all. (Of course, I didn't tell them that!)
@@ Line 36: / Line 32: @@
 I was very perturbed by the official policy of the Retreat that there is "no correct way to worship". (Ed note - Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Egalitarian are all given equal footing.)
-Granted the source of my difficulties is my knowledge of Halacha and Hashkafa, but are we not exhibiting Codependent behavior by our tacit consent to this statement and these behaviors?
+<s>Granted the source of my difficulties is my knowledge of Halacha and Hashkafa, but are we not exhibiting Codependent behavior by our tacit consent to this statement and these behaviors?</s>
 Above all I was upset that the spirituality of Mitzvah performance and Torah study were not further explored at the Orthodox level for the Orthodox and for the non-religious at their level.
-The Orthodox Davening was, pardon me, very uninspiring. Singing was at times spirited but what about the Words! What about the sense of conversing with Hashem and being in His Presence? I am aware that this may seem as an unfair demand. After all what Shul in America really possesses this. But then again who in American Jewry really understands spirituality. But we in the program know and understand differently and therefore do promote and seek spirituality.
+The Orthodox Davening was, pardon me, very uninspiring. Singing was at times spirited but what about the Words! What about the sense of conversing with Hashem and being in His Presence? I am aware that this may seem as an unfair demand. After all what Shul in America really possesses this. But then again who in American Jewry really understands spirituality. But those in the program know and understand differently, and therefore ''do'' promote and seek spirituality.
-It is my opinion that at a Retreat, Orthodox observances should not be business-as-usual but every effort should be expended to demonstrate and teach how the Mitzvos and Torah study can be spiritual in their Halachic context.
+It is my opinion that at a Retreat, Orthodox observances should not be business-as-usual but every effort should be expended to demonstrate and teach how the Mitzvos and Torah study can be spiritual in their Halachic context. The davening should be uplifting. Those who understand Shabbos in its traditional context should be allowed to lead the Zemiros and other Mitzvah performances. Maybe your brother, Rav Michel or someone of similar qualifications (Halacha, Avodah, Kiruv) could be enlisted to coordinate this endeavor. I certainly will give any assistance that is deemed appropriate.
 Again the Shaaloh that I will place in front of the Posek will be, "should I continue to participate in these functions as they presently exist?"
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 Dear Rabbi Kaganoff,
-[discussion of other current affairs (published elsewhere) not relevant to these topics]....
+<s>[discussion of other current affairs (published elsewhere) not relevant to these topics]....</s>
-Now to your letter.
+<s>Now to your letter.</s>
 It is ironic that the problem exists because the group meets in a conservative temple. Is this perhaps because the orthodox shul would not welcome them?
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 It disturbs me greatly to see people shouting "Shabbos" at drivers. The Baal Shem too shouted "Shabbos", but at himself rather than at others.
-Just imagine. Shabbos is supposed to be 􏰐􏰍􏰄 􏰖􏰒􏰈􏰏 􏰇􏰊􏰏􏰎. “ 􏰈􏰒􏰈􏰑􏰊􏰈” means that when Shabbos arrives, one puts the worries of the work week totally aside. The work week has been closed and completed. Shabbos is a spiritual experience where man and G-d are united as bride and groom. If we glowed with the joy of Shabbos and radiated the bliss of 􏰐􏰍􏰄 􏰖􏰒􏰈􏰏,
+Just imagine. Shabbos is supposed to be "like the World to Come". "Vayechulu" means that when Shabbos arrives, one puts the worries of the work week totally aside. The work week has been closed and completed. Shabbos is a spiritual experience where man and G-d are united as bride and groom. If we glowed with the joy of Shabbos and radiated the bliss the bliss of the World to Come, wouldn't people be running after us to learn our secret?) If those who see me are not observant of Shabbos, I need to improve myself rather than chastise them.
 Here, too, there is a valuable lesson from the program. Abstinence is not sobriety. Someone who has not had a drink for years but has not made any characterologic changes is a "dry drunk." Families will tell you that it is easier to live with an active drinker than with a dry drunk.
-Transgressing a negative prohibition of Torah is an 􏰄􏰅􏰊􏰍􏰏. Failure to perform a required mitzva is also an 􏰄􏰅􏰊􏰍􏰏. When we avoid all the 􏰇􏰊􏰈􏰈􏰐􏰒 and fulfil all the 􏰄􏰁􏰏's, we are essentially abstaining from 􏰘􏰈􏰅􏰊􏰍􏰏. Unless we make the requisite improvement in midos we are the equivalent of a "dry drunk."
+Transgressing a negative prohibition of Torah is a sin. Failure to perform a required mitzva is also a sin. When we avoid all the ''aseys'' and fulfil all the ''lo-saseys'', we are essentially abstaining from sins. Unless we make the requisite improvement in ''midos'' we are the equivalent of a "dry drunk."
-There are many fine observant people who have exemplary midos. Unfortunately, we cannot deny that there are more than a few people who observe glatt kosher and are dressed in the most frum garb, but who are sorely lacking in midos. At the retreats, much of the anger is directed at parents or others who were very rigid and restrictive in their demands, but their midos did not keep pace with their ritual observance.
+There are many fine observant people who have exemplary ''midos''. Unfortunately, we cannot deny that there are more than a few people who observe glatt kosher and are dressed in the most frum garb, but who are sorely lacking in ''midos''. At the retreats, much of the anger is directed at parents or others who were very rigid and restrictive in their demands, but their ''midos'' did not keep pace with their ritual observance.
 I was the first orthodox rabbi to appear at a Retreat, and my initial appearance almost caused an upheaval because of the bitterness to orthodoxy. Fortunately, together with a few other well chosen rabbis we were able to achieve a change of attitude. One time an orthodox rabbi came who did not obey the instructions to remain silent at his first retreat and just listen. He gave a sermon according to rabbinics 101 which went over like a lead balloon.
-Davening should be spiritual. Just how spiritual is the davening in the average shul? I have davened in any number of shuls and shtiiblach, and they rush through the davening at 100 mph. If, God forbid, the baal-tefillah is a bit slower and the davening takes 35 minutes instead of the 30, it is simply intolerable.
+Davening should be spiritual. Just how spiritual is the davening in the average shul? I have davened in any number of shuls and ''shtiiblach'', and they rush through the davening at 100 mph. If, God forbid, the ''baal-tefillah'' is a bit slower and the davening takes 35 minutes instead of the 30, it is simply intolerable.
-But aren't we those who preach emunah and bitachon? We say that every person must do some hishtadlus, but that it is not the degree of hishtadlus that will determine his earnings. Then why the frenetic pace? Why rush out of shul after 30 minutes to spend nine hours in the business or office? If we do not practice what we espouse, how can we expect others to respect our ways? I am not referring to others, but to myself.
+But aren't we those who preach ''emunah'' and ''bitachon''? We say that every person must do some ''hishtadlus'', but that it is not the degree of ''hishtadlus'' that will determine his earnings. Then why the frenetic pace? Why rush out of shul after 30 minutes to spend nine hours in the business or office? If we do not practice what we espouse, how can we expect others to respect our ways? I am not referring to others, but to myself.
 I believe we can get the message across to people in recovery that the easy way is rarely the true way. All their lives they have been

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 [[Twerski on GYE|Main Index]]
-== WHAT IS SPIRTUALITY? ==
+== Question 1: How does one do Kiruv in a Jewish 12-step recovery environment? ==
-November, '96
+<blockquote>''11 November, '96''
 ''Dear Rabbi Twerski,''
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 ''I am writing to seek guidance from you. I believe the issues I will raise require a Psak from my Posek, but I believe that I should have your input before I ask the Shaaloh.''
-''I went to a recent 12-Step recovery retreat. People were raving about the spirituality. I personally did not feel the experience spiritual at all.''
+''I went to a recent 12-Step recovery retreat. Besides the education I receive from the experiences of the people in recovery who attend and share, I also contribute almost weekly a thought of Torah, usually on the Parsha. The focus and purpose of my Divrei Torah is to either impart some basic Judaism to these people who, for the most part, have no idea of what Yidishkeit is all about, or more importantly to show them how the 12 steps and spirituality is very much a part of traditional "old-fashioned" Torah thought and observance. All of this is done at the encouragement of the Rabbi who started the group.''
-''I was perturbed by the official policy there that there is "no correct way to worship". And I was upset that the spirituality of Mitzvah performance and Torah study were not further explored at the Orthodox level for the Orthodox, and for the non-religious at their level.''
+''(As an aside to the theme of this letter, but of equal importance is my expression of Hakoras Hatov to you. I personally have grown from the experience and I also am ‘working the STEPS’ as attempting recovery from addiction to the Yetzer Harah. Y'yasher Kochachem for your manifold illuminating books and your personal help.)''
-''The Shaaloh that I will place in front of the Posek will be, "should I continue to participate in these functions as they presently exist?" As I mentioned earlier, I would very much appreciate your input on these matters before I ask the Shaaloh. Also, if you are aware of a Posek who understands the world of recovery, I feel it would be most appropriate to ask him the Shaaloh.''
+''Due to my input and guidance, many in attendance begin feeling an affinity for Judaism etc. which is bringing them closer to Conservative Judaism (since the meetings take place in the basement of a Conservative Temple). The Rabbi of the Temple is the one who started this group and also attends in a similar capacity - just that Judaism in his perspective is presented as humanistic, social justice etc. Am I not, de facto, assisting these people from one self-deception into another? Spirituality is defined as choosing to follow Hashem's will. To deceive oneself as to the nature of Hashem's will is again an addiction - a spiritual addiction - which is even more insidious than a hedonistic addiction. Since the basis of all spirituality and recovery is absolute honesty, my gut reaction is to speak out - gently, of course - and reveal that God's will for Jews is very clearly enunciated in the Oral and Written Torahs. To posit that they are not the Word of God is really another form of denial as can easily be proven by attendance to a Discovery Seminar of Aish Hatorah etc. or reading any number of books like Uri Zohar's "My Friends We've Been Robbed".''
-''As always, I am very grateful for your straightforward, constructive counsel and guidance.''
+''Especially bothersome to me, is the knowledge that no matter how hard these people strive for spirituality; their Jewish soul will not be quieted of its yearning until it does receive the spiritual nourishment that Mitzvos and Torah provide. I am not being honest with them unless I share with them the truth.''
-''Respectfully, Yehoshua Kaganoff''
+''On the other hand, I am reluctant to tell them for fear of losing them. They are struggling to stay sober. Often times this very struggle alone is a daily overwhelming fight. Will it be counterproductive to reveal the whole truth? The question itself is frightening because if not now, then when? And if not, then I am accomplice to a deception that is blasphemous negative spirituality?!''</blockquote>
-= Rabbi Twerski’s Response: =
+=== Rabbi Twerski’s Response: ===
 Dear Rabbi Kaganoff,
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 Just imagine. Shabbos is supposed to be "like the World to Come". "Vayechulu" means that when Shabbos arrives, one puts the worries of the work week totally aside. The work week has been closed and completed. Shabbos is a spiritual experience where man and G-d are united as bride and groom. If we glowed with the joy of Shabbos and radiated the bliss of the World to Come, wouldn't people be running after us to learn our secret? If those who see me are not observant of Shabbos, I need to improve myself rather than chastise them.
 Here, too, there is a valuable lesson from the program. Abstinence is not sobriety. Someone who has not had a drink for years but has not made any characterologic changes is a "dry drunk." Families will tell you that it is easier to live with an active drinker than with a dry drunk.

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:31, 24 February 2021
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	== WHAT IS SPIRTUALITY? ==		== WHAT IS SPIRTUALITY? ==
	11 November, '96		11 November, '96

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 It disturbs me greatly to see people shouting "Shabbos" at drivers. The Baal Shem too shouted "Shabbos", but at himself rather than at others.
-Just imagine. Shabbos is supposed to be מעין עולם הבא. "Vayechulu" means that when Shabbos arrives, one puts the worries of the work week totally aside. The work week has been closed and completed. Shabbos is a spiritual experience where man and G-d are united as bride and groom. If we glowed with the joy of Shabbos and radiated the bliss of עולם הבא, wouldn't people be running after us to learn our secret? If those who see me are not observant of Shabbos, I need to improve myself rather than chastise them.
+Just imagine. Shabbos is supposed to be "like the World to Come". "Vayechulu" means that when Shabbos arrives, one puts the worries of the work week totally aside. The work week has been closed and completed. Shabbos is a spiritual experience where man and G-d are united as bride and groom. If we glowed with the joy of Shabbos and radiated the bliss of עולם הבא, wouldn't people be running after us to learn our secret? If those who see me are not observant of Shabbos, I need to improve myself rather than chastise them.
 Here, too, there is a valuable lesson from the program. Abstinence is not sobriety. Someone who has not had a drink for years but has not made any characterologic changes is a "dry drunk." Families will tell you that it is easier to live with an active drinker than with a dry drunk.
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 I believe we can get the message across to people in recovery that the easy way is rarely the true way. All their lives they have been looking for the easy way, and when they hit rock-bottom they realized it doesn't work. What are all the changes in Judaism if not looking for an easy way? I think we have an opening here to argue well for full Torah observance, unless of course, those who claim to be totally Torah observant are also looking for easy ways. I suspect this may be true, in which case we have no argument.
-There is certainly much at the retreat that can be improved, and I think that with patience we can do it. I don't know that there is a posek who can really address this. Sorry to say, some of them are the equivalent of "dry drunks," meticulously observant and very knowledgeable, but thoroughly unaware of what feelings are all about, and how people can be paralyzed by emotions. Some may be totally alienated from their own feelings.
+There is certainly much at the retreat that can be improved, and I think that with patience we can do it. I don't know that there is a posek who can really address this. Sorry to say, some of them are <s>[the equivalent of "dry drunks,"]</s> meticulously observant and very knowledgeable, but thoroughly unaware of what feelings are all about, and how people can be paralyzed by emotions. Some may be totally alienated from their ''own'' feelings.
 Love to hear from you.

← Older revision	Revision as of 07:54, 24 February 2021
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