Dov

Dov's Quotes

As organized by Gibor120

Captain Kirk

The Captain Kirk post is a classic, I'm moving it here to make it easy to find. It's a good introduction to "dov quotes". I'm also adding "Nuclear Reset Button" at the end since dov mentions it often. And then finally: Why we need "recovery" (not more eitzos)

Captain Kirk

OK, so you are making a point that divulging all aspects of our identity is the only way to make a full disclosure of self and be truly honest with others.

But we all know that is not true. We all know that we do not have to tell a friend all about us, in order to be close with him. There are other ways to get truly intimate.

So you are trying to be docheh my words with straw. Intimacy is not what I am talking about here, at all.

Please bear with me and I'll tell you about Captain Kirk in a minute.

First, I will share that I have seen dozens of guys who have had the hardest time just saying their right name on a phone call. I have heard the hesitating, quiet voice on the other end of the line finally admit that "yes, my name - the one the real people in my everyday life know me by - is Pinchas". It is a terrible strain for some - and I hear myself in their trembling. That same hesitancy - fear mixed with shame. It's mine, too. It's just that in my case it is behind me - in theirs it is still in front of them.

What is really going on here?

I have seen frum guys finally drag themselves into live meetings and start off the first few meetings using a 'fakish' name - their English name that no one who knows their frum persona really uses. Only to later change their names in the meetings to the Hebrew name that their wife and friends use - cuz they began to see the perverts in the room are like they are, that they need what the guys in the room have been given just as desperately as they do. No difference in that respect. That is when the walls go down and the real juicy work can finally begin. Until then, they are still unattached to what goes on in the meeting, for on some level it is not really Pinchas who is sitting there, but 'Robert' (the bad guy who is subject to porn worship).

How to bring them together?

Which brings me to Captain Kirk.There was once an episode of Star Trek in which there was a time travel shtick, and the Kirk of the present, went 10 years into the past. Now, there was another Kirk then, too, right?

That was a big problem. The scientists told him that normally two of the same people cannot coexist. It just does not happen. But as this was an exception (it was a TV show and they were getting paid $15,000 per episode) as long as the old Kirk did not actually meet the present Kirk, all would be fine. However, if they actually met each other, the entire Time-Space Continuum would be 'ripped asunder' (chas veSholom). Under no circumstances could they be allowed to meet!

I do not remember what actually happened to Mr Shatner, but everything turned out OK for there were another few seasons of the show (and also we are all still here, no?). But my point is just this:

How does a frum guy get all drawn into his very private porn, admitting by his actions its awesome, sweet power for him, and privately have sex with himself (masturbate) with such intensity and imaginative pleasure and power? OK, so he has shame, self-loathing, and sadness afterward. But how does he do both tefillin, teaching Torah, being mekareiv and really davening for others hard and really crying for the churban, and really working on his middos....and masturbating himself with a fantasy that could only mean he (secretly) also worships the beauty and power of those naked shiksas and the act of sex? How does such a contradiction survive in him?

How does it survive in us?My answer to myself is simple. We learn to lie a little. We lie to others and we lie to ourselves. We'll quit really soon. We won't do it any more when we are twenty....or fifty. Never on Shabbos. Never with masturbation. Etc. All lies, to ourselves. And over time, we learn to lie more and more without even noticing it, just as you cannot see yourself grow.

When we are being good, we feel good about ourselves and we wish we could forget the bad stuff we did last night - we call that a hirhur teshuvah. Really it is just so we do not hate ourselves so badly, but that's OK. We learn not to face it right now by pretending that we are 'forgiven' by Hashem. That way, one persona does not invade the other so much. It gets put off till the next time, if we are lucky.

When we are being 'bad', we wish we could forget how devoted we are to Hashem and His Torah and to our wives and children and to honesty with society - because it just feels so good to do the porn and we really see no way out of it. We know we need it and do not in a million years believe there is really an alternative for us, in the end. We end up 'ignoring' our kedusha during the act. That is lying to ourselves, and again, one persona does not see the other simultaneously. Pretending we are really rotten to the core is a much more comfortable way to act out. Nu. Who wants to hurt so much?

We walk about for years and are tortured inside, for we know the dichotomy we are hiding - we are the dichotomy. But we do not really know what to do. We fight to make one side gain mastery over the other and call that hisgabrus al hayeitzer. And we fall. Then we assume we are horrible Jews, and assume that Hashem agrees with us about that. That mistake is a hard one to shake...(see step 2)

So now about the time-travel dilemma.When we open up to others under a username (or fake English name in a meeting) and share the entire truth (which most rarely do) about our addiction, we are still hiding our 'good' persona - the real me. It's OK to let them know the horrible dirt - yeah, all of it - as long as they do not know the 'good' persona too well. The two are just incompatible.

Those who got caught by their wives or children know exactly what I am talking about. They understand why they getting caught was so effectivbe for a time - the desire to use the porn left them as a result of getting both personae dragged into the room at the same time. The horror of getting caught with my pants down by a co-worker, son, daughter, or wife is truly intolerable to anyone who has experienced it. Why?

Because the hypocrisy is mercilessly forced to come to a bitter end. The Time-Space Continuum has ripped asunder. We look frantically for a place to bury ourselves. It's hell.

It is the two Kirks being forced to see eachother by a third party - and only a party who knows both personae can possibly do that. Till that happens, we are all players. Lying a bit about the 'real us' to ourselves and to others.

Some of us insist on solving our problem without bringing the two personae together. Perhaps they are just avoiding the terribly painful end of their hypocrisy, perhaps not. I do not know what is best for another. But in my own case, I got caught, and it still didn't help. After a few weeks I was back at it and it got worse and worse until I couldn;t take it any more. i was begging for someone to rip off my cover and get me real! My wife could not do that, for she does not understand what I am talking about when I describe the desperation to get the sweet porn in my mind and heart and does not understand the allergy to it that I have.

So I needed real meetings - with real addicts. Perverts for decades who chose the path of sobriety because they had no choice. Just like me. People who can hear both sides of me. And I use my real name, wear my normal Jewish outfit, and talk with them freely about my real life.

And that flows out into being real with everybody else in my life, whether they know about my problem, or not.

And that is why so many of us are OK with goyim in meetings, but shrink into a corner when they meet a frum yid. There is a common strong desire to avoid and evade. And I do not blame them, for I had that, too. Here is a guy who can bring them even closer to the true full self! It's more pain to go through. But more healing, too.

Interestingly, I have seen newly recovering program-guys meet people from the meeting in public places just 'out of the blue' and totally ignore them, as if they didn't know them at all. Those guys did not remain sober. I think they may have been shocked by the cross-over from their 'meeting life' into their 'real life'. They were not willing to smile discreetly and say a polite "Hi" to the other guy. Instead, here was trouble - "so get away from me quick." Oy vavoi.

This is precisely why AA has a strong tradition of real anonymity. We do not reveal the identity of anyone else we meet in the rooms to non-members. Ever. But it's not about shame, at all. It's because sharing the secrets of others will not help their recovery at all! Only the truth that they want to share will help them.

Those who just get caught and stay clean out of fear of further humiliation never, ever stay better. Getting humiliated into sobriety does not work, until there is some humility added. Humilty (in hachno'oh to the truth) is the underpinning of the steps.

And that is why 'accountability groups' are nice but will ultimately fail, as long as they are based on avoiding shame - which they can easily become all about.

And that is why opening up to the wife (and remaining consistently open with her) is so very powerful - when done at the right time. It is powerful medicine for my recovery and powerful medicine for the marriage. Honesty there removes yet another layer of hiding from ourselves that has to go to the boards for true freedom.

Sharing my credit card number and address would not do any of these things for me, and neither would pulling up my pant-leg. It's not about compromising my security, nor my anonymity. It's not about getting hurt nor for the sake of being punished for all my wrongs until I can finally be good. This is not Teshuvah and it is not sigufim. It's all and only about being the real me with everyone that I can be, to the extent that I can be without violating the health of my family and others. We do the best we can in that, and ask Hashem to make it work right. And it works, period.

Nuclear Reset Button

The "Nuclear Reset Button" idea is about how we unfortunately thrive on that very honest state we do feel after masturbating ourselves, and that no matter how holy we feel in that state, it is all part of the same sick cycle. It suggests further, that since we sincerely crave feelings of pure kedusha and hate the feeling of struggling with lust, we end up masturbating ourselves in order to get out of the struggle and into that holy, connected and honest state we often feel after masturbating. It's one of the only ways we know of that practically guarantees plugging into kedusha and teshuvah (with a 'v') again. A dirty cycle in which t'shukah (with a 'k') for avodas Hashem and kedusha leads us to end up masturbating again for years and decades.

Why we need "recovery" (not more eitzos)

Dear "Avraham613",

You are are an advertisement for GYE already, whether you realize it or not, I think. It is impossible to give eitzos on the forum, really. You are still quite a stranger to anybody here, so far. And each person is holding somewhere else! General eitzos are always good, but still, everybody is different...so:

Can you, where you are right now, share a bit more (or a lot more) about yourself here (or elsewhere) and get anything you are hiding about your insides, 'out'? There is no question that the 'details' we hold onto as the most precious secrets, are the greatest poison we possess. And if since using this site has been helping you so far, that's great! Just consider that if you are now having a hard time, this means something. It means that staying in the same tools is not good enough any more for you now. It is the way it always goes. People find something that works for them, but when it stops working, they flop, and are shocked and disappointed.

But how does it make sense that recovery does not grow? When I use porn it always progresses, either in intensity or style - the old schmutz eventually stops doing the trick, and I need a bit 'more' to get the job done.

Recovery is the same, lehavdil. You have grown, sir. That means you have changed. If you are a little different, certainly what you now need is different, as well.

Too often well-meaning people get a bit liberated from the same old porn and shtuyot. They find some relief...and what an awesome mechayeh it is!

But to be so foolish as to think that we are done now? The goyim of AA were gifted with enough humility by Hashem to have discovered long ago, that today's sobriety guarantees NOTHING for me tomorrow. Nothing. There is no real momentum, in the long run. If we do not continue growing up, then we will eventually fall. 100% guaranteed. We can rest on our 'laurels' - for a time. But eventually, we will be made fools of by our compulsion again. Dotage is always a possibility waiting around the corner for us - just as big fools as we were made before we started to grow.

It is actually quite shocking to us. There is no difference between my totally slave-like devotion and trance-like compulsion to search through wickedly shocking porn for hours and hours (or much worse) if I'd do it today vs. what I used to do fifteen years ago. Same pathetic fool. Same sweet, good man. Same powerlessness once I take the first drink.

Posting here is a big step! But what do you aspire to accomplish? The world is actually open up for you, in recovery....it is closed for us when we do what we used to do. Posting here means you are peeling away yet another layer of isolation, of doing it your own way, of going it alone. It was our trip till now -all of us, especially since we are frum. The terrible isolation and shame that a masturbating ben-Torah feels is indescribable to others. This move of yours now, to reach out here, is huge!

Please do not wait around for lust to catch you. You must either continue to grow, or lose. Not grow in yir'as Shomayim - you tried to grow in that before and yet you still ended up in all this trouble. Then you started to open up and and face the truth about yourself and your behavior...and you have 4 months of clean time!

Yet by the same token, running away from lust is not the real answer - a good tool usually, yes. But not the answer. Pretending it is the answer is destructive, cuz it distracts me from the real answer, c"v.

Having desires and feeling compulsions to look at schmutz (or to do whatever it is that you are you are referring to) is to be expected. Humility says to me "what do I expect from a guy like me? It's so great that Hashem has helped me till now....what can I do to get with Him and stay on the right path today?"

Freaking out about it is a big mistake. It is the kind of thinking that got us so screwed up in the first place. ("Oy! How could I ever have such a disgusting desire now?! A guy like me? Clean for four months! I should be far, far beyond such things already! After all :, I only spent ten years staring at porn - with the devotion of 'kriyas Sh'ma'; focused on my fantasies and masturbation - with the focus of shemoneh esrei; and hid things and worked hard for a decade or more already to produce sweet little opportunities to engage in my sexual gratification in the bathroom - with the yichud hama'aseh of the kohen gadol lifnai v'lifnim." It's a nutty expectation, after our record, no? Nutty and stupid.

Nu. Such silly expectations are gayvoh, plain and simple. Poshut not sane. In fact, the 12 steps of the program do not even mention lust (or whatever drug brings us here) after the 1st step! Zip. Cuz the steps and recovery are not at all about controlling lust! They are about learning sanity, period. If we are working on sanity, Hashem takes care of us and we remain free from needing to act out our lust for this day.

Now you tell me: is it sane to expect that I will have no desires and no slips? Me? May Hashem save me from my own gayvoh today, so that I will succeed at honesty rather than more hiding, recovery rather than 'conquest', and giving rather than taking! Amen.

You are so fortunate so far! It's really beautiful. You are beautiful. Keep doing what works, and please don't get fooled into using the well-intentioned things that got you into the bottomless of your problem in the first place.

Continued Hatzlocha Chabibi!!

Selected Posts

Dealing with Thoughts

My favorite tool for getting the thoughts out of my head is ignoring them. I have discovered that I really am the ba'al habos of my head...sometimes.

If that' does not work, I make sure to try and do the diametric opposite of whatever my lust is: Meaning, instead of worshipping or sexually devouring the person or image or whatever, I pause and pray (with actual spoken words, in private) for the person or instituion involved me'umka deliba as best I am able right then. Not for them to 'finally see the light and stop being so provocative or promiscuous` - that judgementalism poisons me no matter how much my morality agrees with it. It is more than useless. Rather, I daven that Hashem should give them health and comfort in this life and whatever is afterward, and that He grant them a progressive awareness of Him and of all the good in their lives, and that He give them clarity in how all the good in their lives comes from Him, and that he even grants them acceptance that all the hard times they may have in their long futures is a gift from Him somehow, and that they also have peace of mind to really do right by themselves and by G-d. Then I may ask for all the same for me: Health, Comfort, Progressive awareness of Him in my life, and Peace of mind.

If that does not work - and sometimes even if it does - the best tool of all for me is to openly share all the dirty and stupid thoughts I tend to have with another safe person. I am careful to say it in a non-exciting way (no need to show off and splash dirt all over him, is there?) but still directly and truthfully - with Hashem's help.

As long as I am ashamed of what gets into my mind and as long as I say to myself stuff like, "How could I ever have thought such a horrible thing!?" - I will keep thinking stuff like that.

If I really know that I am a sick person getting well, then I will accept goofy thoughts as just that: goofy. I will take them as seriously as I need to take goofy, stupid thoughts....not very. And I will move past them with Hashem's help. On the other hand, if I am too ashamed to admit them, then I am too ashamed to believe that I am sick. It means I really believe that I am evil, ie. bad. Good luck getting 'good'! : Deep down inside, these folks are too ashamed to admit their evil thoughts even to Hashem! I believe that's why they can never 'get good'. Hmmm...

A sick person may have shame about his rear-end discomfort when sitting, but eventually he will get truly comfortable discussing all the details of his embarrassing hemmorroids with whoever he really has to discuss them with. Totally comfortable, eventually. Because he admits that he has a problem - that he is sick, not disgusting. I have seen this many times. (I actually do have a friend with hemmoroids who had such a hard time getting the words out of his mouth to describe his exact problem! And we are very close! Nu. Once he got it out, he freely discusses it with me and I have helped him discuss it openly with two doctors already. Boruch Hashem!

Same for most sex and lust addicts - and even for guys who just have porn habits but are not really addicts: They cannot seem to get the words "I masturbate" out of their mouths! Once they get the truth out, just see what people have posted on GYE about the relief of discovering they are not alone! I masturbate in my addiction too! And it's horrible for me when I do that - but especially when I do all the tinkgs that led me up to the masturbation.

See, for normal yidden, talking it out makes it worse, by far. There is a reason that "it's a shanda! Nu! Shaa!" is part of our culture. There is certainly a place for that mentality and approach to lust.

But for people who are already doing it over and over for a while and with a trance, planning and proccupation and a repeated pattern; who feel withdrawal when they quit and other cyclical mishega'as...well, they have a problem and may be addicts. And they need help. You cannot get help without talking explicitly about it, can you?

But I, and addict, am free of it this day, and am happy to share with anybody who wants to get better how that happened.)

Exact same thing here. I am a recovering pervert. Iv'e got a tendency to have strange and goofy sex (and other) thoughts, let's face it. It doesn't mean I need to act them out. And I need help.

This last tool is precious gold to me and has saved my life, sanity and yiddishkeit a thousand times over!

Thanks for giving me a setting to share that, World!