Onus or Responsibility?

By @Editor

Regarding the rationale behind non discussion in Litvish Yeshivos, see the intro to והתקדשם by Rabbi Kalman Krohn zt"l p. 71-72. According to him it has nothing to do with minimal consequence. [i.e. that's an onus anyway]

In line with that the Zos Brisi booklet has no qualms about talking about the severity, while still emphasizing a positive approach, especially in the original Hebrew version (see attached).

The author wrote to me that his booklet was written with "clear guidance I received from Rav Aharon Leib Shteinman זצ״ל, Rav Chaim Kanievsky and Rav Moshe Shternbuch."

Also using the phrase אינם יכולים להתגבר בשום אופן from R' Wolbe, is hard to accept at face value, and make it a יסוד for אונס רחמנא פטריה. At GYE we see even impulsive masturbators be able to reduce frequency or even stop for lengthy periods of time. And last week I've seen a letter from the Lubavitcher Rebbe to a therapist saying that " "From my knowledge of such cases, the majority of boys, and a majority by far, overcome this problem when they know its seriousness and are guided accordingly", though he acknowledged that earlier marriage would help. It should be noted that he had a lot of real time info on the topic from countless bochurim who would consult for a tikun and advice.

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1. In the Gemara it's clear that אין אונס לערוה, לפי שאין קישוי אלא לדעת - see Yevamos 53b and this is quoted l'halacha in Rambam (Isurei Biah 1:9). The case discussed there is certainly much more tempting and difficult than the discomfort of not masturbating (see Rashba there שתקפוהו גוים ודבקוהו...!)  And yet he'll get מיתת בית דין... and the reason why for the woman it's considered תחילתו באונס וסופו ברצון is when the actual act was physically forced (as Rashi explains in Kesubos 51b, Rambam, ibid), and then she had automatic pleasure. (I think that this explains the gadlus of Yosef Hatzadik, yes he was single and kidnapped, and eishes potifar threatened him, yes he resisted not as a chumra but as ikar hadin - אונס would not apply to him.)

Can it be that a boy finds himself in an exceptional nisyonos that is exactly like the case of the woman? According to R' Tzadok (צדקת הצדיק אות מג) it's possible, but only Hashem knows when that applies (as he says there). Same for Nekudas Habechira. Also the Ohr Yisroel Salanter Letter 8 R' Yisroel Salanter talks about how the aveiros that are hard to resist are considered less severe regarding שכר ועונש, but that only Hashem knows how to measure it. This doesn't have relevance to Halacha - the sanhedrin would ignore it, as we see in the Gemara.

As you can see this is a sticky topic, and will not comfort a bochur. It's better to comfort them with normalization about the level of struggle, how common it is, how it doesn't define them, and if needed explain how habits work, and why willpower/yiras shamayim is often not enough, and what can be done.

2. Chazal say that the time to get married in at age 17 (which is בן י"ח לחופה, i.e. beginning of the 18th year), a few years after puberty, i.e. marriage and הוצאת ז"ל are not dependent on each other.

Another point is that the Gemara in kiddushin 29b does not tie late marriage to Masturbation but to הרהור עבירה.

בן עשרים שנה ולא נשא אשה - כל ימיו בעבירה. בעבירה סלקא דעתך? אלא אימא: כל ימיו בהרהור עבירה.

Same for אי אפשר לו בלא אשה- it's also about הרהורים. (See Rambam - Talmud Torah 1:5)

And indeed Torah is relatively forgiving about Hirhurim (בבא בתרא קסד, ב)

3. From the letters of Steipler (see e.g. חלק א סי' קח and חלק א' סי' קט) it's clear that he viewed the full severity to apply to bochurim too.

4. See המספיק לעובדי ה' (לבן הרמב"ם) פרק י: וכן בעל אשה יצטער אם יתאחר משגלו אפילו שבוע אחד, ואלו הרוק שהזנות אסורה עליו וכן מי שנוסע רחוק מביתו לא יצטערו אפילו יתאחר שנה תמימה, וכל זה מכח ההרגל. The point is that even for singles, מרעיבו שבע.

5. Regarding compulsive / non-compulsive, I wrote that even compulsive masturbators can reduce or stop, certainly regular guys can reduce or stop if they get the proper guidance and skills. Davka the non-compulsive guys have a much easier time stopping. Often just talking to someone and getting some tips, sometimes even by email, gives them the push they need to make a big leap.

6. After normalization, one of the first steps is to develop self-efficacy that it is possible to stop, exactly the opposite of telling them that it's an אונס. Even goyim can do it - see the NoFap movement. Telling them it's an אונס will also take away their motivation/decision/commitment to work on it, and then it will truly be an אונס...

Examples from GYE Members:

• "I used to think back when I was regularly mzl [masturbating] that it would be impossible for me to stop completely and that I will necessarily fall even if try to stop. And that's exactly what happened. Every time. Until I found GYE. I learned something important - I was capable of restraint. Masturbation was NOT something that I needed to be happy. In fact, I found myself feeling happier, more satisfied and more fulfilled without it.” @Ftndrug
• “I’ve masturbated compulsively for years and years, and now I’m clean for an entire year! There really is no need. There's a very strong urge, but there's no need to masturbate. I just needed to make a very deep decision in my heart and mind, that I really don't need it. I may slip once in a while, but it's not anymore like "I'm anyway going to fall, so why am I controlling myself today? I'm going to fall tomorrow or the next day". @HashemHelpMe

7. Long before R' Wolbe zt"l, the Reishis Chochma wrote "ראשונה נדבר בענין המוציא שכבת זרע לבטלה, שהוא היותר מצוי שכמעט אין אדם בדורנו נמלט ממנו." (Shaar Hakedusha Ch. 17). Yet the Arizal who lived in his generation still wrote about the tremendous negative spiritual effects. Seforim who talks about the negative spiritual effects refer to it as חטאות נעורים because it happens during youth. The Sefer Habris (1:17:2) writes, על כי העוון הזה גדול עד מאוד ופוגם יותר מכל העבירות וגם שכיח וכשלו בה רבים לכן לא אסרה תורה בפירוש זה העוון כשאר העבירות ע"ד מוטב יהיו שוגגים כו' אבל עם כל זה זכרה זאת בדרך מעשה שהיה בער ואונן etc. - in the same sentence, he writes how common it is (since Matan Torah?) -- and also how severe it is.

8. Re Chassidish/Litvish, see attached with what the Chazon Ish and Steipler thought about the Shomer Emunim. And see what Shomer Emunim writes in מבוא השער Ch. 2 and מאמר שכר ועונש Ch. 15, and his צוואה printed there to his students. לב מי לא יחרד to say that it's okay...?

Based on the intro to והתקדשתם it seems that only different in Mesorah is about tactics. Even the oft cited Kesser Rosh says להנכשל בעון קרי כמעט בפשע (which seems to exclude masturbation w/ intentional physical stimulation) and are busy with Torah you don't need to worry because the Torah is a tikun. I wonder if the R' Wolbe letters and reference to the Chazon Ish are also talking about such a case (i.e. כמעט בפשע) or if they expanded the scope of this eitza.

9.Someone who does not meet the compulsive/hypersexual and is just a "regular guy with nisyonos", can still benefit from learning skills re self regulation & behavior change, and getting support, and his situation will improve. There's a tremendous amount of evidence based methods that can be harnessed for this - have a look at https://theoryandtechniquetool.humanbehaviourchange.org/tool to see the scope. If his משגיח can't provide it we need to find alternative ways... For this "silent majority" we want to (A) prevent them from getting to a point that they need outside help. (B). If they do end up struggling we want GYE to help through various mediums (a mentor network, website, books, hotline, text messaging program and more...). We want to help every yid. Bottom line: I don't see any segment that we'd consider אנוס who should just be told to learn to live with it guilt free.

11. The word נגמלים also means to wean off. Now that I'm reading R' Wolbe's words again, I think he's saying that teens find it impossible to stop, but by focusing on learning and having a social life, they will eventually be able to wean off - ולאט לאט נגמלים מהאוננות. That may be what R' Silman meant too. If that's the pshat, there's no disagreement here. The Steipler also uses the phrase שהשי"ת יעזרך במשך הזמן להנצל מחטאות נעורים and the Lubavitcher Rebbe ztl also wrote "הרי לאט לאט ירגיש בהטבת מצבו" or אט לאט תקל עליו המלחמה ומעט מעט יגרש את היצה"ר. (See http://wiki.guardyoureyes.com/The_Steipler & http://wiki.guardyoureyes.com/Chabad). Habits take time to change.

13. There are plenty of ways to deal with the excessive guilt, shame and hopelessness without compromising anything - we do it all the time on the hotline and the relief the caller feels is palpable, it works.

14. I am not sure the notion that today's kids are more exposed to the severity than in earlier generations has any basis. I believe the קיצור שו"ע was accessible to all since it was printed. (Each generation had its seforim, הנהגות אדם, של"ה,  many of them spoke about about fasting etc. ) Also, the accessibility to it is not a bad thing, it's not something gedolim feel should be hidden from the public -- it's all reprinted in Zos Brisi.

P.S. Recently I asked Rav Morgenstern Shlita (talmid of Rav Elyashiv zt"l) about someone whose wife has Vulvodynia, and he was not able to have relations with her for 12 years (!) and is struggling with masturbation. He was still not prepared to give any heter, he just wrote back "It is obviously a very difficult question, without a good answer. He needs to be encouraged that he is a big Tzadik for being able to hang on. HaShem wants him to collect much reward in the next world."

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By @The.Guard

I would just like to add my two cents, even though I am nowhere close to the stature of the talmidei chachamim involved in this discussion.

In many sources in Chazal, we see that whatever spiritual falls we may have were divinely ordained (as the Gemara says, if not for these two pesukim there would be no hope for Klal Yisrael:  ואתה הסיבות את ליבם אחורנית והסירותי את לב האבן מבשרכם). On the other hand, the Torah makes it clear that there is Bechira, as it says "ובחרת בחיים".

This is an apparent contradiction, is it Hashem or is it us?

The Ba'al Hasulam addresses this and explains that only regarding what happened in the past is one able to say "Hashem brought me to fall" (either because he is training me like a father trains his son to walk even though he knows he'll fall, or because he's teaching me about Teshuva, or because I was too haughty and needed to be shown מה חדל אני, or any other reason that His wisdom dictates... ). However, regarding the present moment, we most definitely have full bechira at all times to do the very best we can in the present situation.

Now although the Ba'al Hasulam's resolution of the contradiction doesn't really make scientific sense (because either there is or there isn't bechira), this is what the Torah tells us is the reality, even though it is beyond human comprehension. This is what a Jew needs to believe, and this is where we get the Mitzva of "Emunah", which means "believing even without fully comprehending".

I think this can resolve the arguments in this amazing discussion because you are both right.

Regarding the NOW, we must teach bochurim that they have full bechira to do their very best. However, regarding everything up until this very moment, they need to know that Hashem has been pulling the strings all along...This perspective will also automatically save them from the shame and guilt of the past, while empowering them to try as best they can in the present moment.

להגדיל תורה ולהאדירה

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By @Editor

1. Granted, someone with a masturbation problem should get married early. But this does not imply that without getting married it's impossible to resist, he just has it harder for himself. Hirhurim remain inevitable because thoughts are often automatic etc. until he is מסיח דעת, and he will also be at further risk for masturbating (חפץ חיים נדחי ישראל פכ"ה), but he still has a choice to tackle it somehow. He could handle it just like he was expected to before בן י"ח לחופה. Attached are two quotes from the Gr"a about how difficult challenges are our distinct mission in life to overcome. This view is prevalent in chassidus as well.

2. Regarding קשין מעבירה yes, it's a bit of an enigma. Some explanations fit in with the concept that hirhurim are still less severe in every sense. e.g.

• אורחות חיים: ויש לכל אדם להזהר מכל הרהורי עבירה שהרהורי עבירה קשין מעבירה פר"ש שלא להצטרך הסליחה אמרו כן אלא הוא כקצת אותן דברים שמעכבין את התשובה שיש מהם שמצד קלות הענין יקל עליו ולא יתעורר לתשובה ואף זה הוא מאותו המין אבל העבירה עצמה כשעשאה יבוש עליה ויתעורר לשוב ויתחרט וזה שהורה הלשון כשלא אמר אלא קשין כלומר קשה לפרוש ממנו.
• רמב"ן הובא בכד הקמח: הרהורי עבירה קשין מעבירה אחר מעשה העבירה, שכיון שעשה העבירה כבר ועוד הוא מהרהר בה בזה קשה לענין עונש הנפש מעבירה עצמה.

3. Regarding dealing with excessive guilt, I've found the following points to work well across the board without getting into delicate philosophical sugyos:

(A) Teshuva will erase everything. You already did basic teshuva, you're not happy about the past and you're committed to working on it - the fact that you called proves it. You can do more advanced Teshuva when you've been clean for a long while or after marriage. Right now, the desire to obsess over the past is just coming from the Yetzer Hara to keep you stuck and to keep you thinking about the topic... When you feel bad about yourself, you're more likely to try to escape those uncomfortable feelings by doing more of the same. For now our main focus is to figure out how to actually make the change. It will take some time, just like learning to ride a bike, but eventually you'll figure out what works and you'll see very significant progress. A central part of Teshuva is עזיבת החטא and this fits right in. The best way to work on this is with a positive attitude, don't get caught up with setbacks, just treat them matter of factly as wrong turns on a drive, you'll use them as a learning opportunity to improve your skills and plan.

(B) For those that need more chizuk, the Steipler at חלק א סי' קו gives tremendous chizuk. He basically says that each victory undoes the damage of previous setbacks, and so ultimately everything works out, even if for now you still have occasional setbacks - and when you're done with the process you have a perfectly clean record. Also Tanya Ch. 26-27 have become very mainstream, and are cited in Positive Vision by Artscroll Day 84, and 88, V'haer Eineinu Ch. 3 w/ Haskama of R' Matisyahu etc.. Rav Hunter's letter fits in too.

(C) For guys still worried about doing teshuva, I'll tell them to schedule a time for Teshuva for 15 minutes somewhere on their calendar, and do as much Teshuva as they can, and then move on.

Bottom line - when they hear from an "authority" that it's okay to not ruminate about the past, they're more than happy to comply. It's music to their ears.

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1) Regarding early marriage, historically you're right. But from the Chofetz Chaim I quoted in one of the emails (חפץ חיים נדחי ישראל פכ"ה), it's mashma that until 18 there is no inyan of getting married, even though as he writes remaining single carries the risk of zera levatala, and that's why guys should get married right at 18. How were all these teens expected to deal with the nisayon before 18?

See also: א"ר לוי בנוהג שבעולם, אדם נושא אשה בן ל' שנה בן מ' שנה, משמוציא יציאותיו הוא בא לזקק לה - שיר השירים רבה פ"ז

i.e. in those days guys got married late, and not having enough money can prevent someone from getting married until late.

I'd also be curious to know what the average marriageable age was in Lithuania before the war, from my understanding frum bochurim in our grandfather/g-grandfather's generation didn't get married very young.

2) Regarding it being unnatural, an approach - based on the Chofetz Chaim, R' Eliyahu Lopian etc. (see attached) is that in our generation we have bigger nisyonos that ever before, but it's intentional, and hashem gives us the kochos to deal with it. Various generations had their nisyonos, 100 years ago in America it was for keeping shabbos, under soviet Russia it was to keep basic Yiddishkeit etc. and today it's nisyonos with sexuality including access to porn etc. This is the approach in Vahaer Eineinu p. 78, Positive Vision - Day 40, Zos Brisi, and R' Moshe Wolfson - see here (albeit based on Chassidish sources).

One way to validate is with the Ohr Yisroel Salanter Letter 8 (quoted in an earlier email) that when the struggle is harder, the punishment is less.  

וראה גם בס' החזיונות להרח"ו עמ' רלג-ד, בשם האריז"ל: "דע כי אין גדולת הנפש תלויה כפי מעשי האדם, רק כפי הזמן והדור ההוא; כי מעשה קטון מאד בדור כזה שקול ככמה מצות גדולות שבדורות אחרות; כי בדורות אלו הקליפה גוברת עד מאד מאד לאין קץ, מה שאין כן בדורות הראשונים".  How much more so in our generation!

The way I understand איני מבקש אלא לפי כוחן, לפום גמלא שיחנא etc. is that when there are stronger struggles, there are also more kochos from above to deal with it, at least over time.

Just like by the חטא העגל where Rashi quotes chazal "רש"י  כי תשא פרק לב - משל למלך שהיה מאכיל ומשקה את בנו ומקשטו ותולה לו כיס בצוארו ומעמידו בפתח בית זונות, מה יעשה הבן שלא יחטא", yet there was definitely a punishment for those who participated.

The Torah was given for us today בכל יום יהיו בעיניך חדשים etc. and all the dinim apply today just like at any other time.

I'm not sure why you use the phrase "Chazal set out the inyan", according to many/most poskim הוצאת זרע לבטלה is a דאורייתא.

3) The pinkas lita (attached) from the year שפ"ג, in אות לב it says that if someone gets married under 18 without the families permission, the marriage is void, so it seems like there was sometimes family pressure occasionally not to get married young. In the פנקס ועד ארבע ארצות it has the same rule, but the age is 20.

4) Regarding the Rashbam, see Igros Moshe Even Haezer 1 Siman 56 (towards the end). He explains that it's not a real anus because he could just stay home, just that in this context it's mutar , וא"כ הרשב"ם שיגרא דלישנא נקט. the idea he expresses that histaklus is only assur if it leads to hirhur is also the halacha (mishna berura 75:7), and we find amoraim that used this heter lechatchila (e.g. kesubos 17a).

5) Thanks for the source with R' Nosson Tzvi Finkel, I'll add it to my collection :)

6) Regarding monetary rewards in general, I just meant that I don't have a firm opinion about it yet, but you raised some good points. Currently I use it only in rare cases, when the other options don't work. I know Dr. Zimmerman doesn't like it, while others are big fans of it. btw - Recently the NY times ran a story about reinforcement in general - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/health/meth-addiction-treatment.html.  

7) Regarding the ability to control hirhur, it's like the what R' Yisroel Salanter writes אור המוסר ח"י עמ' נט: זאת טבעת נפש האדם, כל מה שמעמיק לדחות איזה רעיון, איזה צער וכיוצא, עוד תתגבר ההתנגדות בנפש האדם להלהיב המוזר לאדם. לזאת מרבוי ההשתדלות לדחות ההרהורים, יוכל להיות להיוולד לפעמים סיבה גדולה לחזק ההרהורים. You can control the duration of the thought, but not whether the thought comes to mind. And see more here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic_process_theory and https://www.apa.org/monitor/2011/10/unwanted-thoughts.  

8) Regarding the chances of doing 10 years straight, לו יהי כדברך, does the fact that he can't be 100% perfect for 10 years, make him completely mufka? What about other issurim like lashon hara, bitul torah etc.? Does אין צדיק בארץ אשר יעשה רק טוב mean that he is mufka? See the Midrash in Bamidbar Raba Parsha 19:

ומוכיחין אדה"ר ואומרים לו אתה גרמת לנו מיתה והוא משיבם אני בידי חטא א' ואתם אין כל א' מכם שאין בידו יותר מארבע עונות, does the fact each person has at least 4 aveiros make him mufka from them?

Also see the Gr"a in אבן שלמה סי' ח - יש עונות שבאים באונס ובשוגג ואעפ"כ נענש עליהם, כי עברה גוררת עבירה ואדם מטמא עצמו מעט and in brackets he adds "כי מסתמא הניחה מתחלה פתח ליצה"ר לכנוס בו".

9) Attached is a sefer שערי קודש of someone who would agree with you, just for a different reason.