Intimacy: What is Muttar?
What's Permitted
Guardyoureyes often receives questions regarding the limits of what's permitted in the bedroom. Although there are many levels of holiness that a person should strive for, we live today in a very open world full of big nisyonos. Most Chosson and Kalla teachers do not leave much room for lenience when training young couples. However, being strict in these areas today can sometimes be detrimental to Shalom Bayis and to the spiritual and emotional health of the couple.
Therefore, it is important to state clearly that the bottom-line psak that we have heard in general from most Poskim is that any behavior with your wife that can enhance the intimacy for BOTH OF YOU, bring you closer together and make it an overall more enjoyable experience, is permitted (besides for hotzas zera livatala, which means finishing outside).
However, any behavior or position that one of the partners is not fully comfortable with should definitely be avoided.
A few helpful resources on this topic:
- See here from the Shulchan Aruch for the bottom-line Halacha.
- Listen to this 10 minute talk by R YY Jacobson on Intimacy.
- Rabbi Simcha Feuerman, DHL, LCSW-R, President of Nefesh International, who specializes in Male Sexual Health and Function, recorded a set of shiurim for GuardYourEyes called The Chosson Shmooze You WISH you had but NEVER Got. He talks about the things you really need to know, both about sexual health, relationship health, and what to do when problems and dysfunctions arise. Having worked with couples and individuals for over 25 years, Rabbi Feuerman's insights on these issues are a clear sane voice, with a Torah perspective, in a world of confusion and misinformation. The series is password protected because it deals with intimacy. (Send an email to eyes.guard@gmail.com for the password if you're married).
- Download the kuntress called "The Shalom Bayis Booklet for Men" by a Rosh Kollel in Bet Shemesh.
- See here for a number of related articles from the author of the above kuntress, particularly the article called The Halacha of looking at or kissing “oso makom”.
- See this article called "The Dangers of Misguided Piety" by Rabbi Simcha Feuerman.
- See this eBook: עת לפרוש ועת לאהוב by Rabbi Simcha Feuerman.
- Download a Kuntris called "Dvar Seser" by a big Tamid Chacham that discusses these inyanim here (I believe in Perek Daled). He brings many solid mekoros for his maskanos.
CAVEAT : All of the above is for normal people who struggle with a normal Yetzer Hara. However for a real addict, Dov (who is clean for over 20 years in SA) says that seeking all sorts of leniencies and enhancements in the bedroom can make a person even sicker and the shalom bayis even worse. Initially it might seem to help, but it can create a monster and become a nightmare. Instead, a real addict has no choice but to learn how to surrender lust and focus more on others, especially his wife. However, this first requires the admission that he (or she) has a real personal problem, rather than just a question about 'sexuality and halocha'. To discuss if you may have an addiction issue or not, you can reach Dov at wequithiding@gmail.com.
The Halacha of looking at or kissing “oso makom”
by kuntreisim@gmail.com
As I mentioned in my kuntress, there are opinions that maintain that there is no prohibition whatsoever for a man to look at or kiss his wife’s “oso makom”. Accordingly, I wrote in the kuntress that although it would seem that the majority of Achronim adopt the opinion that forbid’s a man from gazing upon or kissing his wife’s “oso makom”, and therefore a man really ought to avoid doing it; nevertheless, if a man decides to rely on the lenient opinion, there is no reason for his wife to worry about it since, after all, he does have a valid opinion upon whom to rely. Furthermore, I heard from at least one Rav, whom I consider reliable, that Rav Elyashiv zt”l held that according to the strict letter of the law, the halacha is in accordance with the lenient opinion, albeit even that opinion would agree that it is a highly discouraged act and should only be done if there is a real need for it. There is also a certain talmid chacham who claimed that Rav Shach also said that the final, definitive halacha is in accordance with the lenient opinion. However, that talmid chacham told me that he heard it from a friend of his who heard it from the Rav who heard it from Rav Shach. I tried reaching out to that Rav but it turned out that he is an exceedingly busy person and it is very difficult to get in touch with him.
In any event, the lenient opinion does exist, so, as I wrote, if a man decides to rely on that opinion, although he may be doing something that is discouraged, one cannot say that he is doing an aveirah since he has that lenient upon to rely upon (of course, if the wife does not want him to do it because she just does not like it, that would be a completely different story).
So, in a nutshell, if a woman doesn’t feel any particular desire for her husband to look at or kiss her clitoral area, but she also does not mind if he does, then she doesn’t need to worry about the issue at all. It is her husband’s issue, not hers.
But what about a situation wherein the wife does specifically want her husband to orally stimulate her clitoris and/or the surrounding area? My personal take on this matter is that if she feels that it is a real need, then she should indeed try to get her husband to do it. However, she does need to realize that, just as a husband must not force his wife to do anything she does not feel comfortable with, if her husband does not feel comfortable with it, then she may have no choice but to make do without this need being fulfilled.
However, if the woman does not feel that oral stimulation to her clitoris (and/or the surrounding area) is a real need, but more like an “extra”, meaning, she would enjoy it, but she can do without it, then my personal feeling is that it would be best to just do without it. In addition to the halachic considerations (the opinion that forbids it and/or the opinion that highly discourages it), my reasoning for this is actually mostly pragmatic.
The Gemara that I quoted in the kuntress about Rav Chisda teaching his daughters shows us this pragmatism. He held a piece of coal in his hand, keeping it hidden from his daughters to the point where they were plotzing to see what is inside his hand. Imagine their surprise and disappointment when they saw that all it was, was a dusty piece of black coal! The point of this exercise, the mefarshim explain, was to show his daughters how something which is not really all that attractive can be made exceedingly “attractive” by keeping it hidden. And, specifically, he was trying to teach them that the oso-makom (which is covered by black hair and is thus similar to the black piece of coal) is made exceedingly desirable to the husband the more she keeps it hidden from him. As one adam gadol put it, “a scantily dressed woman is usually far more attractive to a man than a completely naked woman”.
It seems that many women have a difficult time understanding how the male brain works in this regard. Much of the sexual stimulation that men experience works through the koach-ha’dimyon. Or, putting it in English terminology, through the “tease” effect.
That same adam gadol pointed out that whereas women are primarily stimulated through the sense of touch, men are primarily stimulated through the sense of sight. So, going with that paradigm, it might be helpful to explain the matter to women in this way:
What is more stimulating, if the husband were to gently grab the entire breast, or if he ever so slightly rubs the edge of his finger across the edge of the breast where it meets the side? No, this is not to say that at no point will a woman want her husband to grab her entire breast (after the stimulation), but it does point out something about sexual arousal, and that is the “tease effect”. In any event, whether or not the “tease effect” holds true for stimulating touch vis a vis women, it definitely seems to hold true for most men vis a vis visual stimulation. So when a woman keeps her oso-makom covered and out of sight, it is likely to be far more effective in achieving arousal in her husband than if she completely reveals it to him.
Putting it bluntly, in the aggregate it would not be helpful for a woman if her husband were to get turned off by seeing what her private area actually looks like. Furthermore, for many women (perhaps most) the oso-makom has a not-so-pleasant smell.
So, to sum up, from a completely pragmatic point of view, it’s worthwhile for a woman to be aware of the fact that it is not necessarily to her ultimate benefit for her husband to be gazing at or kissing her oso-makom (or the general area).
Is this true for all women? Perhaps not. There may be some women whose completely uncovered oso-makom is very attractive looking (whether naturally or because they do beauty treatments). And there may also be some men who get really turned on by seeing it completely uncovered. But, in general, my sense is that the possibility of a man getting somewhat disappointed by what he sees/smells is probably the reality for most couples.
Of course, couples can and should make their own decisions regarding how they go about intimacy, and everything I wrote is simply information that I believe is worthwhile for people to be aware of when weighing their decisions about how they will go about things.
Mechaber Kuntreisim
kuntreisim@gmail.com
What is Oso Makom?
by kuntreisim@gmail.com
To Mechaber Kuntreisim,
I am a kallah teacher for many years, and I train kallah teachers also. I just finished a course on this topic and it was amazing. It was very open and explicit. It covered the topics in your kuntress. Presently my project is to make my course digital. Two rabbanim have given me their support…I created this course when someone told me that over 300,000 men turned to GYE last year for help. Clearly kedushas Yisrael is in trouble and as always, everything starts with the woman. SHE has to be CONNECTED. Meaning, enjoying and into it.
A question I have on a topic you discussed in the kuntress is regarding how exactly you define the oso makom? I always thought it was only the actual vaginal opening, not above where there is hair or even the whole vulva area, not even the clitoris and around, in which case a husband would be allowed to see his wife naked lying down or standing or sitting. Do you hold that the oso makom is the whole area?
Thank you,
Kallah teacher and trainer
To Kallah teacher and trainer,
I'd like to start by saying that this discussion is only relevant to the opinion that maintains that it is forbidden for a man to gaze upon or kiss his wife’s “oso makom”. However, there are opinions that maintain that there is no prohibition whatsoever for a man to look at or kiss his wife’s “oso makom” (see this article that I wrote on the topic).
Now according to the opinion that maintains that it is forbidden, I always understood that “oso makom” is defined by what is considered “ervah” in the context of the prohibition to say devarim sheh’b’kedusha in the presence of ervah (see Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim Siman 75). The Rambam (Pirush HaMishnayos Maseches Challah 2:3) writes that when a woman sits down on the floor and puts her legs straight out in front of her with the two legs pressed together (so that her body is in an L shape), doing that covers the ervah. To the best of my understanding, the area that gets covered when a woman sits in that position includes the area where the flaps of skin on the sides (in the clitoris area, they are usually called “labia”) begin to split from one another. In other words, the entire area up until the top of the “line” is included in “ervah”. And, as I mentioned above, for lack of seeing any other definition of “oso makom” clearly explicated anywhere, I always assumed that “oso makom” and “ervah” are referring to the same thing.
I have spoken to a number of Rabbanim and talmidei chachamim who do not agree with me on this point. When I asked them as to their source for this lenient ruling, one of the Rabbanim told me that he heard it from Rav so and so who said it over in the name of Rav Elyashiv zt”l, and he also added that he seems to recall seeing it written in a sefer in the name of Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlita, but that he does not recall what sefer that is. So, as far as trying to fact-check the latter source, that obviously was not possible. But the first source I did fact check, since I know who that Rav is and communicate with him from time to time. I told that Rav what the first Rav said in his name, and he completely denied ever saying. In fact, he said quite the opposite and seemed to have a more machmir definition of “oso makom” than mine, although it was not at all clear to me what the precise parameters are according to that Rav. There was another Rav that I spoke to who told me that when a woman is lying down on her back and her legs are together, whatever is uncovered in that position is mutar for the husband to see and kiss, and whatever is covered is assur. He told me, though, that that is his own “compromise” of sorts. When I asked him from whom he got his definition of “oso makom” (that, strictly speaking, it is only the actual hole), he told me that he heard it from a number of Gedolei HaPoskim of the previous generation but that at this point he does not recall who they were. He told me that he used to have it written down somewhere but that he is not sure if he will be able to find those notes. Obviously, there was no way for me to fact check his statements, and, in the absence of him being able to tell me definitively from whom he heard that ruling, I personally find it difficult to rely on it. There is a another talmid chacham who told me that his rebbi also said that only the actual hole is the oso makom, but he would not tell me the name or phone number of that rebbi, so, once again, I was left with someone making a claim that I could not substantiate or disprove. Finally, there is one more talmid chacham who cited a Gemara in Maseches Niddah 42b that strongly implies that “oso makom” is only the actual hole. However, I responded to him that there is another Gemara in Maseches Niddah 47b that strongly implies that the “oso makom” is the entire ervah, and that it is entirely possible that “oso makom” (which literally means “that place”) is sometimes used to refer specifically to the hole and sometimes used to refer to the entire ervah. The upshot of that exchange is that his proof is unconvincing, and that in the absence of a chashuveh Posek unequivocally stating that this is what he holds is the halacha, one would not be licensed to rely on such a lenient approach on the basis of one’s own sevara or proofs.
So, for the time being, I am left without any reliable mesorah as to this opinion that certainly seems to have “made the rounds” that the “oso makom” is only the actual hole, and therefore I do not feel that there is a sound basis to not define “oso makom” in this context as being the same as “ervah”.
Mechaber Kuntreisim
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